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Messages posted by: dougculnane
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The ID are either the ISAF number or a database primary key id. I need this to link to the boat if the ISAF number is not knowen.

I can import data but I need more that the builder and number of boats built.

You can register individual boats here: http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/AddNewBoat.jsp

All the best,

Doug
There is a database on boats on this site. You can access there data here: http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/boats.xml

If you register and are a member (which means you are on a committee or your committee confirms you are a member) then you can add boats to this database.

If someone sells a boat they can reuse a boat in the database or enter a new one. This means the Boat for sale feature on this site feeds this database.

There are many numbering schemes and the top ten in the world get to use a personal number not a boat number. This means we have not idea about what boats are out there. You can see the gaps in the boat database on this site here: http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/Stats.jsp

All the best,

Doug
I would post in the AUS forum to find out more about the AUS logistics.

The GER Forum is the best place to hitch a lift form Germany. I hope people will post here but these two fleets have teir own forums which get more of an audiance.

Good luck and I hope to see you in Garda.

Doug
Building a good mast and set of foils will take a few goes as it is not at all easy compared to building the boat.

I would (and have in the past) contacted FastaCraft in Austraia and Aadravrk in the UK for foils and mast quotes and built the rest. I even got my wing bars for Super spars, as it seamed easier than making them for minimal cost saving.

Good Luck,

Doug
I agree Robert that the initial idea of no twist was a bit naive. Maybe this is not OK for a competitive wing. Maybe a twisting wing will be too heavy and unreliable to be competitive. It will be interesting to find out the answers to these challenges. However I feel a twisting wing is going to be hard for the home builder and will be expensive.

I too think we have to wait for the rules to be clarified before this project can progress.

I have heard arguments on both sides of the multiple sail issue. I think that the arguments that 2 lifting elements are 2 sails is more convincing and robust but it is not clear issue. If it was there would be no argument. I am not part of the secret and mythical "anti wing lobby" but I do think that a wing sail need to be int he same rule set as a soft sails. Which means the definition of Sail needs clarified. However it seams no one can define sail conclusively.

I do not know which way this will go but it will be interesting.

Here is a picture that shows the spar and web arrangement of a twisting C Class rig.
This forum has struggled to get to critical mass in the past but I really hope it nearly there now. It has good quality but not so much quantitly.

This forum is as good as you make it so please do post questions and I for one will try to answer. Others will return if there is something to see.

All the best,

Doug

When the wingo project started I thought that simplicity would be the key to success and that making the front element twist would over complicate the system. Adam and Bora have designs where the front element did not twist which is now maybe is the reason for lack of downwind speed. For a wing to be truly success full it looks to me like it has to use twist and the slot effect to generate more power than soft sails downwind. There are some thoughts that speed is the key to downwind VMG so maybe my thoughts are totally wrong. However from the SA forum there is a link to a nice paper with grafts showing how slots can increase Max Lift here.

So to make the wing light reliable and have the multiple slot and twist camber control systems needed to take advantage of the theoretical gains it looks like a really big challenge to get right. It also maybe is not possible at this stage and may require new materials or some other factors to make reinvention of the idea successful. If this can be done then making the bits dismantle-able will then be the next challenge. Transport is easy with a big trailer and containers but this for means for me buying a new trailer (and car) so these things are starting to get very expensive. I am not saying we should ban them but I am starting to agree with the guys I argued against originally. These things are not really for a weekend warrior sailor, they do involve a considerable amount of commitment if they are going to make us more competitive rather than less.

I think that:
- the slot effect means that the one sail rule is compromised.
- these things are impracticable on many levels.
- there will need to be a lot of R+D to get them reliable, fast and vaguely practical.
- they are going to cost more time and money than the rigs we now have.

However I also think that:
- they are totally in the spirit of the Moth Class.
- guys like me that want to stay in our comfort zones should not compromise the future of the Moth.
- the laws of nature will decide the best design in due course and I would love to know what that is.
- these are dam cool and interesting things I would like to see more off.
- I would love to build one at some point.

So for me I am not interested in building a wing for the next year or two manly because I do not want to own it. I hope the development continues and it develops into something that is fun to own as well as build. We as a class need to define what the basic rule set is to allow this development to compete fairly with the soft rigs and in the traditional concept of the Moth class that has served us well for 80 years. Banning them is too easy a road to take sort term and the IMCA rules are not there for maintenance of our comfort zones. It they were then we would have a min waterline beam as narrow lowrider skiffs did not make Moths fun to sail downwind in light winds at all.

For me I would define the rules that said something like:
- The true area of all sail parts shall not exceed 8.3sqm (or whatever a current soft sail is now).
- The effective luff length of the sail area shall not exceed 5.1m.
- A measurer shall include all spars/structural elements/trampolines/surfaces as sail area if they generate aerodynamic lift that is used for propulsion.
- All parts measured as sail area shall be considered as sail parts.
- Sails designed to utilize the slot effect between sail parts will be considers as multiple sail rigs and not allowed.

Therefore a boom or a mast can be used to provide propulsion but not a separate sail. Normally a boom does not utilizes the slot effect but if a mast does then it is not OK.

Asking the rules committee to write rules is fine and lots of work for them but we have to ask what are the rules trying to archive otherwise words mean nothing and we will get a "All" or "Nothing" vote. Maybe the "All" vote is acceptable and the laws of nature will sort this out and we or future Moth sailors will find resources to design and utilize nature as best we can (like knee pads for light winds in a lowrider...). Maybe the "Nothing" vote is more comfortable and will win. Is there something in between? I think the above rule intension is in between and consistent with the Moth class constitution however it raises questions:

- Would one element rigs be competitive at all?
- How does one element make these rigs more practical? (I do not think it does)
- Does it really matter if there are many sails?
- Are we happy to accept that soft sails are in danger of getting designed out of competitions and we all will have to get solid rigs one day or start a annex (like the scows and lowriders but for soft sails).
- Will solid rigs split the class into 2, and if so is this a problem?

How do others see this?

Doug







I am happy to sail in a mixed fleet of boats. I do not want to sail in a fleet where all boats are the same design and even the same color...

Scows, Lowriders and hydrofoils Moth have all sailed together but it is I bit frustrating sailing a boat that goes much slower than the fast guys. Mind you my middle of the fleet hydrofoiler goes much slower than the fast guys.

Doug
There has been various debate about wing rigs around the web and we as a class have to decide the future of this development. Therefore i have started this thread in the hope that it will allow us to consolidate the discussion.

Phil Stephenson kindly reported the state of play after the AGM in his opinion. Until the minutes are published or others add to this then it is the best summery we have of the meeting:


No decision was made at the AGM but a heated discussion took place with strong polarized views about evenly mixed. Most anti wing sentiment came from part of the majority AUS attendees. An informal vote was taken of the country reps present and again the vote was balanced evenly. AUS and GBR voted against I think.

There is strong sentiment about cost, durability and convenience of storage and transport. But there is also strong sentiment about the moths being an open development class and this is why they have become so great in 2011.

If wings are to be accepted though, a significant number were against the two or three element design as being outside the one sail rule and tradition.

Mark announced that Adam May has formed a committee of measurers and techno nuts who will be drafting rule proposals for members to vote on two issues. What the committee are considering doing is offer two proposals for voting.

One will be to revise the existing rules and measurement procedures so that all rigs, including boltrope, pocket luff, wing/sail combos, and full wings can be measured equitably. This most likely will mean that the some definitions will change, eg the luff length rule will also cover leading edge length of wing masts and wings. We will need to address how we treat the bits between the wing section and the deck, or any other spars which do not work as sail area. it has to be spelt out. The ISAF Sail Area Measurement Manual (SAMM) is the best starting point but we need to add things about what gets measured and how big it is allowed to be. This is needed not to allow wings to be measured but also to allow a lot of other rigs to be measured equitably with what we know as standard rigs now. Revisions like this have happened every couple of years and Adam initiated discussion on this subject in the middle of 2010. It was however put asside to allow the wing issue to be handled by the limited resources and time available.

The second proposal will be to decide if the class wishes to ban wing rigs, even if they can be measured under proposal 1. This has been necessary because of the strong fore and against sentiments expressed by members since late 2010.

The class has always been an open development class which allows everything which is not specifically banned. The Dec 2010 ISAF ruling on Bora's wings was that it was not banned but that the class measurement rules and restrictions did not allow it to be measured. The first proposal will address this and other long standing issues. ISAF specified that Bora's wings be measured by the ISAF SAMM and re adoption of the manual which was deleted from our rules in 2005 for various reasons unrelated to today's issues, looks like the best option.

The second proposal will give the members the opportunity to ban something specific which will be added to the very short banned list todate comprising Trapezes, sliding seats, multihulls and stand up/hand held (sailboard type) rigs.

Adam's group have not yet drafted or even discussed properly what will be in the proposals so what I have said here can be taken as only my opinion and what everyone will see in a couple of month might be vastly different.


Those of us who were not able to attend the Worlds have seen the wing from a far and got a slightly better understanding thanks to the US team. Bruce has a nice write up which gives some further insight here: http://www.teknologika.com/mothblog/welcome-to-wing-camp/

The rules committee will do their work and will not be able to share it here but I hope we can discuss the issues in an informative way to try and reduce the polarization and make a good informative views that will be represented at the AGM though the National Presidents. I for one am not sure of the best course of action on this and so I would like to discuss and think about it more before I decide.

All the best,

Doug



Thanks for the Info. Phil. I understand we need to wait for the AGM minutes but this helps to.

All the best,

Doug
There are some listed here:
http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/HomeBuild.jsp

This one is good too:
http://www.mothflyers.co.uk/

Try the Wiki too:
http://www.mothflyers.co.uk/

Blogs are listed by date here:
http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/Blogs.jsp
some of the good building content get buried though.

All the best,

Doug
Anyone know that happened at the Worlds AGM? What is the route forward for the Wings?

 
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